Make it a Party! Podcast — Season 1, Episode 1: Great Leaders are Trauma-Informed
Season 1, Episode 1:
Great Leaders are Trauma-Informed
Discover how to make mental health discussions engaging and uplifting! Learn valuable insights from therapy expert Jessica Doane on creating joy in serious topics.
In a world where serious topics often dominate discussions, why not make mental health a party? In this inaugural episode of the "Make It a Party" podcast, host Haley Grayless welcomes her dear friend Jessica Doane, a licensed clinical social worker and the director of community engagement at Resolve Counseling and Wellness in Kansas City. Together, they explore the intersection of mental health and happiness, sharing insights that challenge traditional narratives.
Jessica Doane, LSCSW, LCSW (she/her), is a licensed clinical social worker in Kansas and Missouri and the Director of Community Engagement at Resolve Counseling and Wellness in Kansas City. She brings years of experience across diverse settings—including schools, residential treatment, and outpatient care—and is known for her work with the LGBTQ+ community and her focus on anxiety, perfectionism, and ADHD in adult women. Jessica is also an adjunct professor at the University of Kansas and a member of the Centurions Leadership Program. She’s passionate about building safe, inclusive spaces for healing and community connection.
Connect with Jessica! www.linkedin.com/in/jessica-doane-lcsw-lscsw
Resources:Need a therapist? Resolve
Community Trainings Resolve Community Trainings — Resolve
Special thanks to our sponsor, Leader One Financial, for their recording space!
Music on this podcast is from the song "Grateful" by the local Kansas City band, The Canterberries. Stream and download their album, Flying Around. Follow them on Instagram for upcoming show dates @the_canterberries 🍓 🫐 🍒
Transcript is below. Please forgive any grammatical errors and misspellings, as this was created by the software system used to record and edit the podcast with minimal edits.
Transcript:
Haley: (00:01.582)
Okay, here we go. Well, everybody, welcome to the Make It a Party podcast. This is my first guest episode. I am Haley Grayless with Vaxa Collective, and I named this podcast Make It a Party because one time, a few years ago, I was walking with one of my best friends, shout out Paige, and we were in Hyde Park in Kansas City, and I was like, we're about to walk by my friend Mary's house. We should say hi. And she said, not everything has to be a party.
Yeah. Has she met school? Yeah. I mean she's literally one of my besties since middle school. But it made a lot of sense. And I was like, huh, but why why not make everything a party? And so even though we're discussing some like serious topics today and in the future, I feel like you can just like make life happy. It doesn't have to be so focused on rules and sadness and things like that. So we may be talking about things like trauma informed care and therapy, but we're gonna make it a party. That's true.
Haley: (01:00.058)
So my first guest for this podcast is my good friend Jessica Done. I don't know why I keep looking at the cam, but I should look at you. so Jessica was the most comforting person in my Centurions Leadership Program interview a few months ago because I saw her water bottle. There were like six people there and there were, you know, people were kind. It was great. but on her water bottle, she had all these like stickers that were like Swiftie and you had like mental health matters.
Jessica: (01:26.254)
Mental health matters. All bodies are good bodies.
Haley: (01:30.284)
Yeah, maybe like an ADHD thing or something. And so I loved that so much. And I was like, She is my people. Like I'm gonna I'm gonna just look at her a lot of the time. So I did. I looked at Jessica and you made me feel very comfortable. And I remember I was a little nervous about something I said and I wanted to correct it. or not correct it, but just make sure it didn't sound bad. And I couldn't send her a message on LinkedIn because she's too locked down. So but it's fine. I got in and now
Jessica: (01:54.178)
Do walk down.
Haley: (01:59.992)
We're good. So she's a second year in the program and I am a first year. And it's been like a wonderful experience so far. I've loved it. So she's gonna talk a little bit about that. So Jessica Doan is a licensed clinical mental nope social worker as a mental health therapist. And she's licensed in Kansas and Missouri. So don't get it twisted. You can do both. and she's the director of community engagement, a resolve counseling and wellness in Kansas City. So
The cool thing about that too is that they won Small Business of the Year through the Greater Kansas City Chamber of Commerce. And you guys were working so hard around that last few weeks.
Jessica: (02:31.394)
Big deal.
Jessica: (02:35.47)
Six years worth. Yeah, we can talk more about that. Time comes.
Haley: (02:38.854)
definitely. my God, I love that. Yes, I mean that's awesome because there are hundreds of companies or thousands. And so to be like selected as number one is amazing. And it's very cool that Kansas City has a small business of the year that is a counseling. Exactly. Amazing. So I know a lot of people who go there, including a friend of mine who Jessica cannot confirm or deny is her client. Right. But the other person confirmed it. So the client did.
Jessica: (03:03.306)
not confirm nor deny.
Jessica: (03:08.35)
Something like that.
Haley: (03:08.398)
Right. Right, right. so she brings years of experience in diverse settings around the working in schools and residential treatment and outpatient care and is known for her work with the LGBTQ plus community and her focus on anxiety, perfectionism, and ADHD in adult women. Well, we'll have a lot to talk about. and she's also an adjunct professor at KU. We'll forgive you for that. Kidding.
Jessica: (03:32.974)
We'll we'll accept it. And you'll feel better to know I had to choose between centurions and teaching. So I took a hard pause on teaching to do centurions. I'm actually currently not. So I can be forgiven.
Haley: (03:45.87)
well, it's okay. Living in Kansas City, I've had to embrace a lot of Jayhawks as a Mizzou tiger, but it's fine. We're not even in the same conference anymore. So and if you ask me anything about any Mizzo sports Right. But I also wouldn't be able to tell you anything. People like you watch the game like Well then it's football season. So no. Like I will I'd love to watch it and talk about it, but
Jessica: (03:59.522)
go here.
Jessica: (04:09.302)
like pumpkin spice.
Haley: (04:15.202)
Well I would Right. yeah. And it's less than a minute of screen time. So I still sit there. Every time during every game. I did
Jessica: (04:15.934)
football for Taylor. But that's a different show.
Jessica: (04:23.03)
watch the whole thing.
Jessica: (04:28.738)
last season really every single game it was like a Sunday thing and I started this new thing by myself where I did red Friday Taylor's version where I would wear something Taylor every single Friday of football season. That is cute. Bringing it back
Haley: (04:41.671)
So cute She just made it a party.
Jessica: (04:46.004)
I got the ball movie
Haley: (04:49.004)
me and that is what we're here for. I know my gosh, I need to give one. I recorded that too, too far. that's okay. But and also let's see, she is passionate about building safe, inclusive spaces for healing and community connection. And I think you're doing that very successfully. So Jessica, anything else you want to tell us about yourself? We know you're a Swifty.
Jessica: (04:50.936)
Be the button.
Jessica: (05:10.304)
I'm so many things, right? So I'm a dog mom. I have two dogs and two cats. So my Corgi is like the love of my life. Her name is Clementine. So cute. And I literally don't know how I have existed 30 plus years without her. my god. Like it really does change your whole life. And I think you can relate to that. It like changes your whole life. Like coming home from work and my baby is so excited to see me and follows me around everywhere.
Haley: (05:38.508)
Exactly.
Jessica: (05:39.192)
My partner and I just moved and now we have a backyard and the girls are loving having a backyard.
Haley: (05:42.254)
Perfect.
Is it a big backyard? It's kind of in the country. Yeah.
Jessica: (05:48.184)
Yeah, that's
I feel like I'm in a Hallmark movie. Like study girl moved to small town life. It's very, very interesting.
Haley: (05:58.152)
Gosh, you're living your own Hallmark Christmas movie. Like I can't wait to see it with snow all over the place.
Jessica: (06:06.2)
Anyway, so yeah, about me. I'm a therapist. I also do a lot of community education. So one of my favorite things of my job right now is that I'm going into different businesses, schools, clinical spaces, but honestly a lot more less clinical spaces lately. and talking about some of these things. So, like a lot of stuff that I'm talking about is like mindfulness and boundaries in the workplace, uh-huh, how to have positive interpersonal relationships with your
colleagues, creating a workplace where people thrive. So I'm not just talking about like anxiety, depression, and diagnoses. I'm talking about the stuff that we all needed to hear, that we all needed to learn a long time ago that we have access to.
Haley: (06:47.76)
yeah.
And I love that because it's so much like supports and couples with all the things that I do in the workplace too. so there's probably lots of ways that we will be able to collaborate in the future, you know? Really exciting. Because I think that like you're passionate about these things. I am too. And is it is part of the reason that you're passionate about this because of any like bad experiences you've had and that maybe you want to elaborate on? I don't know.
Jessica: (07:14.338)
Yeah, is this though why are you a therapist?
Haley: (07:16.495)
Yeah, sure.
Jessica: (07:18.722)
I can tie tie some stuff together. so fun fact when I went to freshman orientation at KU, I know we've established this. I'm still sorry, not sorry. I went for teaching. Like I originally was going to go to college to be a teacher, and it was a super weird moment where we my mom and I were at orientation, and all of a sudden I was just like, I changed my mind. I just
Haley: (07:30.918)
my.
Jessica: (07:45.346)
Changed my mind. if you know me personally, you know that I do not do this. Like I am a very planful person. I'm not very spontaneous. It's actually probably an area of growth for me. so the fact that little baby 18-year-old me was like, nah, this whole thing that I planned, I'm not doing it. There's just there was something about the idea of needing to do more than just in a classroom. Okay. So mental health, for example, is in the classroom.
But it's everywhere. Like it doesn't stop at the doors. Right. And so teaching, while a very important thing, it in my brain at that time, which PS, my brain was not fully developed when I made this fun fact your brain is not developed until you're 25 years old. I could go on a whole soapbox about like signing up for student loans before your brain is developed and not understanding how much debt you get in.
Haley: (08:30.622)
Right?
Haley: (08:42.21)
Yep.
Jessica: (08:42.967)
But anyways, that's for another time. I knew that I needed to do something more than what was just confined into the school walls. And that sort of sparked this whole like, my gosh, okay. I had a best friend in high school who had a social worker. And that's how I very first learned about social work. this person struggled with anxiety and depression and suicidality and self harm. Okay.
That was my mission. I wanted to be who I needed when I was younger. I wanted to be who my friends needed when we were younger. Yes. I wanted to be a safe adult that also wasn't just like your typical safe adult. That sounds ridiculous, but like I wanted to be the cool safe adult. I really I have this like niche within my work, which is like I am just unprofessional enough that people adore it and feel really safe and comfortable.
Haley: (09:29.241)
Yeah.
Haley: (09:38.444)
Well yeah.
Jessica: (09:39.33)
Authenticity piece comes out in the fact that I let my guard down a little bit, which is frowned upon in a lot of fields. So box about that and professionalism and different definitions of what that looks like. But all of this to say I wanted to be who I needed when I was younger. I had seen people be either totally missed by the system of mental health or the schools and just kind of fly under the radar.
Haley: (09:48.264)
Right.
Haley: (10:08.014)
Yeah.
Jessica: (10:08.45)
folks really needed help. I also, in college moving forward, went to a therapist and had a horrible time myself and just a lot of like misunderstandings, I think, about what especially queer youth that is a really big piece of my mission as a provider is as a young queer person, I didn't know a lot of what we call queer elders.
Haley: (10:26.739)
yeah.
Haley: (10:35.266)
Okay.
Jessica: (10:36.066)
familiar with people who were older than me who were gay. And at the time, I mean, this was I was 19, this was a long time ago. At the time when I came out, which was in college. Yeah. Which is late technically. So wild, right? So that was considered late at the time. And I felt like I had no one. Like people in my life didn't get it. lot of people were very much so like, yeah, we already knew this about you and kind of like outed me to me.
Haley: (10:47.47)
Mm-hmm. So in nineteen you came out?
Interesting.
Haley: (11:00.39)
Yeah.
Jessica: (11:06.35)
Or the flip side was like, no, you're too pretty to be gay. I was told this. and so all of that to say that I wanted to be able to tie in my personal experiences and give young queer people an adult that is also out, yeah. I wanted to give that example of like you can survive past 21 as it.
Haley: (11:07.726)
Yeah.
Jessica: (11:34.766)
And be traditionally successful. Like I've done this weird thing in the business world where I've taken all of me, and we'll talk more about that with Centurion. Like I've taken all of me and said, take it or leave it. And it's been embraced fully, which has been crazy and unexpected. And like little queer Jessica is always very present in those spaces, I think, of just like holy crap, we made it.
Haley: (11:44.76)
Yeah.
Haley: (12:04.534)
my gosh.
Jessica: (12:05.432)
So long-winded answer of I wanted to create what I needed when I was trying to figure out who I was. And I needed someone in my corner who would believe that my truth was my truth. And I didn't have that. And so giving that to other people has been like one of the most rewarding things that I've ever.
Haley: (12:25.054)
that's amazing. Have you identified your values? Have you ever done that process? Well, okay. Most people haven't, but of course who am I asking, right? Because it's a big thing in like what I teach clients because of Dare to Lead by Brene Brown. Love her.
Jessica: (12:39.182)
I always said in college that that's who I wanted to be when I grow up and I kind of feel like I'm like working towards it. It's it's great, especially getting into the like speaking space and doing more things like this. Like TEDx, I'm coming for you.
Haley: (12:45.447)
my gosh, yes.
Haley: (12:54.434)
Yeah. yeah. I love it. I mean I'll be in the freaking front row with signs and bells on. Is that what they say? They'll I'll be there with bells on. Something like that. It's kind of boomer. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. The cat's pajamas. I like that one. Yeah. What were your values? my god.
Jessica: (13:06.178)
Yeah, yeah.
like that. did you ask me? Yeah. Okay, so I do the value sort activity. There's like a physical card deck and there's an online card deck. And actually I get something different almost every time I do it. Okay. And this this is like not science by any means. Like don't take this as gospel or anything. But I've noticed similar to my love languages
Haley: (13:26.456)
No.
Haley: (13:36.675)
Yeah.
Jessica: (13:36.93)
Notice that depending on the chapter I'm in in my life, my values kind of shift and change. Whereas, same with love languages, if I'm in a relationship where certain things aren't being met, those tend to be the things that I'm craving. So if I'm like filling that questionnaire out when I'm in, let's pretend, a relationship where I need acts of service, I'm gonna be like craving acts.
Haley: (13:41.057)
Okay.
Haley: (13:48.429)
Yeah.
Haley: (13:56.215)
Yeah.
interesting. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: (14:01.708)
with my values similar, they've kind of they've kind of grown as I've grown. but ironically love is my like one of my top values in passion. Yes. and then of course well creativity comes up for me in different ways that has become less important in terms of like this is how I value my life. It just is kind of who I
Haley: (14:06.84)
Yeah.
Haley: (14:16.581)
yes.
Haley: (14:22.409)
Yeah.
Jessica: (14:29.838)
am. Mm-hmm. And I've noticed this split in between of like who you are naturally aligns with your values if you are living in alignment with like that's how I know I'm doing it is when I feel values based living.
Haley: (14:40.235)
yeah. Does that make sense?
Haley: (14:46.99)
Absolutely. What are yours? So well what I kind of I like the way that Brene talks about it. I say her first name, like we're friends. But I think about her all the time. Kind of like Tay Tay. we're not and what I really liked is like she said really like narrow down to like two. And I kind of like the idea of trying to stick to them throughout life. And and I'm a big believer and this is hard, like you may have noticed this too, but like when I do personality stuff with clients or
Values they'll say, like, well, here's how I am at work and here's how I'm at home. Yeah. And I try to empathize with that because I am so consistent. Like I am the same person on the podcast that I would be talking to, a high-level CEO. Yeah. Pretty and almost the same as I would be with like my besties. You know, I mean, there's like nuance to it, but I I'm not a person who's like a chameleon. And I'm honestly, because of that, probably not very adaptable. Like I think I'm spontaneous and
flexible but adaptable is a little bit harder for me where it's like, but I was really looking forward to this thing. And now I've got my hopes up. Or you mentioned Asian food and now I have to get it. You know, I don't know, things like that. So, but I I identified and maybe these will change, but the two that I've really stuck to are courage because I'm such a believer in like I need to push myself to not do what is just comfortable and easy. And also why my word of the year is movement because like I'm trying to like
Get up off my butt. I mean, like within grace and stuff. Like yesterday was Labor Day and I did not do anything active at all. But I was exhausted from doing things days prior. Anyway, but so but courage. So like doing what is not comfortable, doing what is going to actually move the needle, doing something scared anyway, you know, that kind of thing. So courage and then the other one's making a difference or making an impact, changing the world, which sounds
Giants, but I I was actually my one of my superlatives senior year of high school was most likely to change the world. But they officially gave it to somebody else because I had already won one. And then I was also like in the best group of friends too. But I mean, so I still claim it because I had the most votes, which bragging, I'm just saying that was such an honor, you know. I do remember. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because I was like, this isn't fair. I could really get into
Jessica: (16:59.79)
Great moment.
Haley: (17:04.578)
Well, because there's like I didn't make a lot of sports teams and cheerleading and stuff when I watched girls beyond all three or four teams. And it's like this this is not the same principle that's being applied here. So I'm claiming it. Yeah. And I'm trying to change the world. That's why we're making it a party podcast. It's happening, you know? Yeah. but I when you're saying like living in alignment or like if you ever feel like kind of the like the the tummy ache or whatever if you're not aligned with something.
And this can happen even in like fun, non-work related things. So I was at a friend's murder mystery like Halloween party a few years ago. And it was my dream because I have always wanted to go to a murder mystery. Like I love movies like that. I sh okay. I actually have like a kit for one. So I should do it. I bet centurions would actually come because they're joiners. I agree. Maybe we'll do it for my birthday party. Okay. but I I loved it. It was fun, but there were so many people there that like there were a lot of like superfluous.
Characters and I happened to get a character that had a storyline and everything. It just didn't really matter to the story, had no impact on who got murdered, who's the detective. Well, I wanted to be I wanted to impact the story in some way. And so I acted my heart out that night. But then as I went home, and I wasn't mad at anybody, I was just because I like love the people who were hosting it. It's a ton of work to set that up. But I as I was driving home, I was like, why do I just feel
Jessica: (18:12.206)
Obviously wanted to be the murderer.
Haley: (18:29.9)
like unfulfilled right now. And I was like doing you a gut check and like a feelings check. And I was like, it's because my part in this. Yeah. And it just it didn't have any impact. Like I didn't really make a difference to the story. And it's such a tiny example, but it is such a like impactful thing to me. Like I didn't I don't need to be the murderer or the killed or the detective, but
It would have probably made me honestly, like at the end of the night, it probably would have like, okay, I had more fun. I feel more fulfilled because there was impact. Yeah. And I had still a storyline and I was still like working the angles and like trying to like manipulate people and stuff like you're supposed to, but it none of that even mattered. It was all just superfluous stuff. So I think it's an interesting thing where if we're living in our values, they should be pretty consistent from who you are at work and who you are at home, who you are with your friends. And it's interesting to me that so many people
feel like they have to, and you probably see this a ton as a mental health therapist, but feel like they have to mask themselves or be a chameleon. Or I like to almost use octopus because they also they almost do more things than a chameleon to change, you know? so yeah, how do you see that? Is that a barrier with some clients? And yeah, totally.
Jessica: (19:44.64)
And so ironic because I mentioned that like I am very authentic in my work as well. I was not when I first started. okay. yeah, this is like this weird turning point in my career, which is also probably yeah why I mentioned that my values have kind of changed as I've grown into my I think is more so what it is. Like the very first time that I was looking at values assessment, I was an undergraduate, like how I viewed the world.
Haley: (20:03.383)
So right, yeah.
Jessica: (20:13.996)
then now is so so yes with with trying it's almost like Hannah Montana like you're trying to be two different people at once like you're trying to have this mask or this persona in the workplace because of your expectation of professionalism or of people won't take me seriously unless XYZ or people will turn me down because XYZ right
Haley: (20:14.597)
my gosh. Same.
Haley: (20:32.546)
Yeah.
Haley: (20:37.934)
Crazy.
Jessica: (20:43.714)
So when I first came into the field, I thought I needed to be really buttoned up. Like I thought I needed to be like don't ever cuss, like don't like boundaries to the ceiling. Like in college, especially when you're going into a helping profession like social work, you are drilled with boundaries. Like hardcore, these are our code of ethics. Okay. You can't do this, you can't do that, you can't you cannot indicate that you might like something that that person also likes.
Haley: (21:01.518)
So yeah.
Haley: (21:12.75)
wow.
Jessica: (21:13.964)
Lo like wild. I would say my first couple of years I was like a robot. Like
Haley: (21:16.045)
Yeah.
Haley: (21:20.504)
I was gonna say it sounds not human. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: (21:23.102)
new even my favorite color like it was very restrictive nothing about my family nothing about who I live with I do in my free time and I was so worried that if I exposed any of my personal self in the workplace that I would lose credibility an imposter syndrome which I don't know if you're familiar with that idea fed that belief right so my imposter syndrome has a new
Haley: (21:30.253)
Yeah.
Haley: (21:42.007)
Yeah.
Yes.
Jessica: (21:51.95)
Clinician fed the belief of you can't be who you are here. People won't want you. And so fast forward, somewhere along the lines, and honestly, centurions does play into this, so maybe we'll tie some knots, some invisible strings here, if you will. And how many times can we break out into tailor?
Haley: (21:56.333)
Right.
Haley: (22:14.784)
Yeah. Well when you mentioned Hannah Montana earlier, I was gonna say, You get the best folk world, you know.
Jessica: (22:21.688)
Well, I'll just leave now.
Haley: (22:28.418)
Just making making a difference, changing the world, being brave, making it a party.
Jessica: (22:34.018)
That's right. So somewhere along the lines, this idea switched. And I think truly, shout out to Resolve for some of this. So I've been with Resolve now for almost four years. Shameless plug, as you mentioned, we won small business of the year and very, very proud of that. I could talk about that for a long time. I will pin that and if we come back to it, cool. But when I first got to Resolve, I showed up like this, like fully tattooed.
that was not a thing before. I would cover my tattoos at work in public.
Haley: (23:09.47)
And I feel like I see your tattoos every time I see you. It also has been summer, so guns out, guns out, you know.
Jessica: (23:12.064)
No because that is nice.
Jessica: (23:18.208)
I don't any any guns, but they're out.
Haley: (23:21.25)
We all have guns. If you just not violent guns, very, very peaceful guns. Very peace. Yeah. Peaceful guns. Yeah, pacifist guns. Yes, the metaphorical guns. Yeah.
Jessica: (23:23.413)
But
Jessica: (23:28.866)
very the only guns i have
Historically no bands on these guys.
Haley: (23:37.486)
Right. Anyway. Guns of love. Okay, keep going.
Jessica: (23:39.499)
Well.
of love so i also worked in a prison early in my career yeah it's one of my favorite jobs ever okay favorite favorite favorite favorite i worked in the only juvenile prison in the state of kansas anyone that is under the age of twenty one is is the rule for juvenile sentencing that was either too risky if you will or had been disruptive in county jail was sent to
Haley: (23:54.67)
Okay, yeah.
Haley: (24:03.233)
Okay.
Haley: (24:12.01)
Okay. So yeah.
Jessica: (24:12.694)
It was like the toughest of the and my boundaries had to be incredibly tight there. Right. So that in combination with being this abnormal professional really it led to kind of like that masking and that buttoning. So fast forward when I got to resolve, we're in Crair Village. I've said this a million times, this is not a secret.
Haley: (24:19.426)
Because it's dangerous. yeah.
Haley: (24:33.176)
Yeah.
Jessica: (24:41.194)
when I was first interviewing there, I was like, there is no way I'm gonna fit in here. Like there is no way. Like I am plus size, I am not blonde, I am fully tattooed, and I say fuck a lot. And I'm gonna continue to do those things. And I was just so surprised by it was almost like excitement that I was this way.
well.
Haley: (25:10.868)
love to like watch her because keep her on a leash kind of thing. That's amazing.
Jessica: (25:14.478)
wasn't like that. And that is why I am good at what I do is because I was given the opportunity to be myself in a professional space and people responding. So within my therapeutic work, I always tell new clients, I'm like, I am probably not the best therapist out there. Like
Haley: (25:26.25)
Yeah.
Haley: (25:29.57)
Yeah.
Jessica: (25:39.394)
Clinically speaking, yeah, sure. I'm clinically sound. I stay on top of my continuing education. I know what I'm doing to an extent. I don't think anyone ever knows fully what they're doing, especially in the therapy space. Like we're always evolving as humans. The world is constantly evolving. You can't stay on top of it all. Anyways, another soapbox. so all of that to say is I tell clients, I'm like, look, I'm only good at this because I'm really
Haley: (25:52.215)
Yeah.
Jessica: (26:08.246)
I am good at this because I will show up genuine and authentic in this space because that's what I'm asking and expecting of you. And it doesn't matter what modality I use or what advice I give you or how I instruct you on next steps within your struggles. If you don't trust me, it doesn't matter. And in order for you to trust me, I have to be like I have to be authentic. I have to be genuine, obviously.
Haley: (26:27.889)
yeah.
Haley: (26:31.224)
Yeah, yeah.
Jessica: (26:35.458)
still have boundaries and I can't confirm or deny things.
Haley: (26:38.048)
Right. Well I mean my friend who cannot so yes. Well she she wanted your number and I know you cannot confirm or deny, but you or whoever the powers that would not share your phone number with with my friend who's maybe a client. And so and I thought that was
Jessica: (26:41.113)
good.
Jessica: (26:54.19)
Quite possibly love dimensions.
Haley: (26:59.166)
Yeah. yeah. Absolutely. Maybe I'll have her on here. She's the funniest man. I love her. Okay. but as you mentioned, all that stuff about being so genuine and authentic and like bringing your full self to the like client and therapist relationship. I have heard, and you can probably confirm this, that the most important factor for successful relationship is the connection, right? Between the therapist and the client. Like if you don't click, is that basically what it means? Like you gotta click, you gotta like each other. Yeah.
Otherwise you're not gonna have successful like outcome. Totally. Okay.
Jessica: (27:33.002)
And actually all of that ties us really nicely into trauma informed care. Things we wanted to cover today. and it's that connection piece, right? And connection is literally at the core of everything that we do. And in the therapy space, I'm telling you, if I was not me, you know.
Haley: (27:38.07)
yeah.
Haley: (27:55.555)
Yeah.
Jessica: (27:57.614)
I don't want to say that my therapy style wouldn't be authentic or helpful or like a part a piece. I I don't want to say that it wouldn't still be beneficial, but it would just look a lot different. And I have as a provider, I felt bad on both sides, right? Being more buttoned up, especially like when I get a new client or if I'm gonna go do a lecture or a training with a new
Haley: (28:16.77)
yeah.
Jessica: (28:25.386)
New agency, I do start out a little more buttoned up because I have to kind of feel it out myself before choosing how much how much vulnerability am I willing to bring to the table. and vulnerability ties into trauma-informed care too. But a piece of this like authenticity is being willing to meet you in the ring of vulnerability, a brene brene.
Haley: (28:40.728)
Yes.
Haley: (28:49.749)
yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: (28:51.426)
Yes. Our bestie, she says, like people are either willing to meet you in the ring of vulnerability and that's where true connection happens, or they're not, and they're on the outskirts and the connection isn't going to occur. When we're talking about trauma-informed care, that is like the root. And it's saying, like, in the workspace, for example, as a leader to be trauma informed, which I'll tell you the definition of. I guess you might want that. Essentially it's the idea that
We as human beings all come with a story, a history, a past, and all of our lived experiences are a thousand percent different and we are all perceiving this exact moment differently based on our lived experience.
Haley: (29:31.49)
Amen to that. Well, you said that really fast. So let's no, that was was I mean, I like the the pace, but I want people to really catch that. We're all living the same experience in different ways because of our well, our other perspectives and our other experiences. Exactly. Because of the way that we were raised or because of our values. Yes. because of our own personality, yeah, right? Our own strengths or drives and things like that. Yeah. And
Jessica: (29:56.542)
And past treatment too, right? Based off of this. Like you may have, you've maybe learned or been taught through society that you're too much or too big or too loud. I definitely have struggled with this one. Speak of authenticity. A part of watering it down was I had always felt like I took up too much space. And so when I was like, wait, you want me to take up space? Weird. And then I did, and it felt really good. And then it was like.
Haley: (29:59.566)
Yeah.
Haley: (30:11.746)
Yeah.
Jessica: (30:26.486)
Right.
Haley: (30:27.308)
That's amazing. It's wild. Well, that's what you were saying centurions too at our centurions retreat back in April. I mean, I literally couldn't stop crying. I was sitting toward the front, but you were talking about how you thought, I don't even know why you were sharing the story, like what prompted it. But you were at the front and talking about how when you joined this, it's a leadership program through the Chamber of Commerce here in Kansas City. And people are pretty I mean, I think they're very open and and friendly, but it they they can have like really high-level positions in their companies.
They might be really, really highly educated or really buttoned up, wear suits and stuff like that. And so Jessica was sharing that that like you were just anticipating not feeling accepted, right?
Jessica: (31:08.162)
I yeah, ironically, I tell this story all the time too. when I interviewed for my director role at Resolve, the owner of Resolve had in a previous meeting talked to me about doing some networking with some like in my terminology finance bros, marketing peeps, you know.
Haley: (31:29.684)
Okay, okay, yeah.
Jessica: (31:34.412)
The typical when I stereotype, which I'll own that, this is what this is, when I was stereotyping what I was going to be met with, I was envisioning old white men that didn't give a shit about what I was saying. Part of me applying for centurions was to combat my own imposter syndrome as a business person. Because that role is new to me. I I I've been the director of community engagement now for three years, but
Haley: (31:47.458)
Yeah. Like
Haley: (31:58.638)
Yeah.
Jessica: (32:03.48)
Prior to that, I I just started saying it's all right for me to be me in the therapy space, which is behind closed doors. Now I'm gonna bring it to the public. Woo. They're not gonna want to hear from me. They're not gonna want me knocking out their door. I am the squeaky wheel. That has always been my thing. I we we are one and the same. It's true. and so applying to centurions was like.
Haley: (32:12.046)
Yeah.
Jessica: (32:34.636)
Do I even belong in this space? I'm a therapist. This is a business leadership development program. I'm gonna be surrounded by people who do not get the world I'm coming from, let alone my lived experience as a queer person. Right. Like there were these multiple, multiple facets coming to play of like, I am fully tattooed, I am plus size, I say fuck a lot, like all of the things that I've already told you.
Haley: (32:49.825)
Right.
Haley: (33:00.322)
Yeah.
Jessica: (33:01.408)
with this expectation that I would be walking into a room of 80 people in suits. Right? Yeah. So fast forward applying was yeah, a piece of it was like just a proof to myself that I could and I did, which was very neat. But then I have just been completely ambushed by surprise is like the best way to put it. Of like like you mentioned people have been so
just eager to learn about things that are different than them, which has been super refreshing for someone like me who does this work. Right. And what's been so neat is that the things that I am an expert in, if you will, I don't like that word. but an expert in are things that people within our program are seeing as valuable, seem to know more about and are like coming to me as the expert in this thing to continue to grow. And it's been just
Haley: (33:49.911)
Yeah.
Jessica: (33:59.958)
I don't know. I feel like I made fast friends overnight with 80 people. And now again, as as a second year, we just got to meet a whole new class of first years and I'm doing it all over again and I've had that same experience, except now I've been able to set the stage for that to be someone else's experience.
Haley: (34:04.774)
Yeah.
Haley: (34:17.221)
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. It made me so happy to hear that. I don't know. Maybe I was just like deprived on sleep too. I don't know why I was I do.
Jessica: (34:23.518)
You're just a dormant. Like went with me to the
Haley: (34:28.082)
So beautiful that like that just that story was just amazing, like that you shared. I like loved it so much. So okay, we we're talking a little bit about trauma informed care. So for people who are yeah, well, I mean, anything about you is the reason we're here. I just want you to get to share and I like I love to just capture these moments. you know, take this moment and taste it, as Tay Tay said. we should have made friendship bracelets for this. Darn. We should have been.
Jessica: (34:54.817)
making printship bracelets while doing. I was gonna say maybe I'll come back.
Haley: (34:57.228)
Well, next time. Yeah. Exactly. For round two. yeah, the after party. my gosh, that's what I should call it. my gosh, I love it. after dark. Ooh, crazy. Talk about authentic. but so for people who are like managers or even just like teammates in the workplace, how can people be more
Jessica: (35:09.346)
are
Haley: (35:24.248)
trauma informed as they interact with each other. So a lot of that has to show vulnerability on both sides, right? Because you can't help somebody if they're not willing to disclose a little bit of their personal life, right?
Jessica: (35:37.46)
Something with clients too, like as a therapist, I can't do more work than you're willing to. So I can give you all of the tools, but you as my client has you have to be willing to come towards me. I'm not going to make it very far. Very similar in the workspace. Obviously, the expectation of what is being shared has to look different in the workplace from a manager to an employee versus a therapist to a client.
Haley: (35:51.266)
Yeah.
Haley: (35:58.313)
Yeah.
Jessica: (36:03.994)
but one thing is like the word trauma in general, I think is a very misunderstood, especially for people who don't do this every day, right? So when people who are not maybe as dabby in the mental health world or or in the trauma land, if you will, the thought is always that trauma is one of two things. It is you are a military veteran who is home from combat.
Haley: (36:08.831)
Yeah.
Jessica: (36:30.976)
You're you were in a horrific car accident, like those are like the two examples that come to mind. Or there's this other idea in the workspace that like Gen Z, for example, is coming in and making everything too sensible. Snowflakes or something. Yes. And that trauma is just a cord that's being thrown around just to like as an excuse to not do things.
Haley: (36:42.636)
yeah.
Jessica: (36:56.022)
And so before we talk about like what managers can do, I think having a good understanding of what trauma means is our first step into being trauma-informed. So trauma is literal brain development. Depending on where you're at in your timeline, we mentioned earlier your brain isn't developed until 25. So if you have childhood trauma, for example, that means that your brain was
Haley: (37:05.128)
yeah.
Haley: (37:10.359)
Okay, yeah.
Jessica: (37:22.258)
in development while traumatized, meaning the trauma sticks, stays in the brain as the brain continues. So like let's say, and I'm gonna make this metaphor up on the spot. So I hope I can go with it. I'm terrible with cars, but I always use cars with metaphors. It's very random. So let's pretend that you buy a new car, but you don't replace the engine and the engine is it's it's had it's seen something. Okay, if you will. It's maybe gone through some car.
Haley: (37:26.784)
And it's continues to develop.
Haley: (37:35.479)
I love it.
Haley: (37:51.832)
The Carfax report may show it lied. okay.
Jessica: (37:53.985)
It lies.
Jessica: (37:57.766)
Yes. but let's pretend that you have this full working car, but you don't replace this engine that had some sort of thing happen to it with history. Okay. And then you're like, why is the car not running like normal? Like maybe it still turns on, but it it takes a while to click.
Haley: (38:10.774)
Yeah.
Haley: (38:18.991)
I've had a car like this, yeah.
Jessica: (38:20.878)
So like it still goes, it's still like semi-reliable, but like the actual pieces within the engine that are corroded are things that have been there from the get-go that you can't just like magically expect for the car to work as it should with these things as a part of the building blocks of said car. Again, this metaphor is I'm going with.
Haley: (38:28.59)
Yeah.
Jessica: (38:46.486)
So with with trauma, it's very similar. It doesn't mean that like, I was two and I have this trauma and I dream about it every day. That that's like very rarely what's happening. It's more so like this thing happened to me and now this behavior reminds me of this. And so every time this behavior happens, I react like this. It creates this like equation in your brain of what's safe versus what's not and how you should react or respond.
Haley: (38:55.362)
Yeah.
Haley: (39:08.364)
Yeah.
Haley: (39:14.988)
Yeah. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
Jessica: (39:15.704)
Yes. Are you with me?
So when we're thinking about trauma with our employees or the people we're managing, we have to remember that their story isn't just like laid out for us on a silver platter. Nine out of 10 times we're not going to understand why someone is the way that they are or how they react the way that they do. That's not the important piece. Like as a manager, you don't need to know what the trauma was. You need to apply this to
single person regardless of their history. So even if I don't know that you have a trauma history of some sort, I know that being a trauma informed leader means that I am going to utilize safety, trustworthiness.
Choices, I'm gonna give you choices. It's okay if this is funny looking. We're gonna collaborate and I'm going to empower you. So these let's do that a little bit better. There are five tenets of trauma-informed care. And this is honestly how I want every leader to just lead. Like in general, if every leader, regardless of trauma, regardless of the people they're working with, utilized these five standards, I think by nature they would be more
Haley: (40:24.034)
Yeah.
Haley: (40:34.894)
yeah. I mean these are just important skills regardless. So like safety goes with psychological safety. My favorite thing to talk about. Psychological Yes. Pillar three of my five pillars of successful leadership. Which if people don't know, psychological safety is the most important factor a team can have in order to be high performing and high achieving. Which
Jessica: (40:54.584)
Lowers your rate of losing folks. absolutely feel
Haley: (40:58.35)
Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's the whole reason I started my business. And the reason I left my old job is because it was so low in psychological safety, which is where people feel like they can fully show up, bring their wholesal to work, they can take risks and be vulnerable without yes, without feeling like they'll be humiliated or ridiculed or have like opportunities taken from them because those those things were happening to me all the time. And
I was very, very not trauma informed. Like I was I was so stressed all the time. Literally, like, I mean, I'll I'll go into this on probably another episode, but like I went through like a period of like six or seven months where I feel like my hair was falling out. I could barely eat. I mean, it was probably less than five hundred calories a day. And not because I was like trying to restrict, it was because I could not yes, I had so much impending doom and anxiety, I didn't know how to overcome it. It was horrible.
Jessica: (41:54.924)
Okay, so you bring up such a good point. In that work environment, had you have had a leader who was trauma informed, even if your stress was the same or the demand of the job was the same, you maybe would have not felt as burnt.
Haley: (41:56.588)
Yeah.
Haley: (42:04.023)
Yeah.
Haley: (42:11.902)
Exactly. No one really knew how to help. And I'm pretty open. So I was sharing and I wear my heart on my sleeve. So I had people telling me like in the hallway at work or in the break room, like, you've lost your sparkle or something. It was like, yeah, you lost your sparkle, or like you the sun, the sunshine isn't showing through you anymore. And I was Yeah, it's because I'm miserable. Like, because we had a senior vice president who came on board and she was just damaging the culture so badly. And then none of the people under her, so like vice presidents.
Were trauma informed and nobody was really standing up to her. Like no one challenged her. Yeah. I mean, I was doing it and I wasn't even that high level, but yes. And I kept getting my hands slapped. I was told not to be the white knight. I don't really know what that means, but I guess so. But I was trying to Gandhi the situation, you know, be the change you wish to see in the world.
Jessica: (42:55.832)
Havia com
Haley: (43:02.27)
And I was trying and instead I just kept getting in trouble. So it was such a low level of psychological safety that it was absolutely miserable. Like I cried on my way to work and I wasn't even the only person. Like people also started telling me the same things. The turnover was almost fifty percent. It was terrible. Yeah. Like, I mean, there were whole departments that would completely turn over, but the exact same problems would persist because the environment didn't change.
Jessica: (43:28.782)
So one thing people ask me a lot, like why did I choose social work versus like psychology for example? Because you can be a therapist with a lot of different education backgrounds. And the main reason is because social work believes in person and environment. So the entire theory is that the person is only as strong as the environment, and you have to look at the factors for both, right? So like
Haley: (43:34.444)
Yeah.
Haley: (43:38.392)
Teaching career.
Jessica: (43:56.266)
A kid, for example, if a kid is struggling to stay awake in school and we're like, this kid just doesn't pay attention, this kid just doesn't care about learning, this kid is defiant, but we're not looking at, this kid is houseless and mom it works overnight and kid is watching infant nephew or brother or
Haley: (44:16.502)
Yeah.
Jessica: (44:17.614)
Throughout the night while mom is working. If we don't look at the environment, we completely dismiss all of these factors that explain behavior. And all behavior is a message. All of it. So like with kids, again, kids can't express their feelings, their needs, their wants, so they express through behavior. And trauma informed care, if you have a hard time applying this concept to adults, thinking about it with kids makes it a little bit easier because kids feel so helpless, I guess, isn't
Haley: (44:27.469)
Yep.
Haley: (44:42.2)
Yeah.
Jessica: (44:46.902)
No, I don't love that wording.
Haley: (44:48.478)
Well, they don't have the same level of vocabulary that we do. Yeah.
Jessica: (44:51.746)
Yes, they don't have the tools to advocate for that, right? But if you think about kids and you think about like that example I just gave, you would think very differently of that student had you known the background. But if we are only treating the quote unquote problem, then we're missing in what you just said about business happens, right? Like it's the definition of insanity. We can keep doing the same thing over and over again and wonder why it's not changing. Or we can zoom out and take a look at the
Haley: (44:54.133)
Yes, right.
Haley: (45:14.029)
Yeah.
Haley: (45:18.114)
Yeah.
Jessica: (45:21.226)
And decide, is there something? It's a pond. Is our pond filled with toxic waste or is our pond filled with clean water? And if you're putting new employees into toxic waste, they're going to turn profit doesn't change, right? but vulnerability, as we've mentioned, is not possible without psychological safety. So really, this is a layered thing. Totally. Like you have to have.
Haley: (45:33.833)
Exactly.
Haley: (45:40.727)
Yeah.
Jessica: (45:48.118)
one before you can have some of the others, which I think feels intimidating for folks that have never really experienced. maybe you've seen that with with leaders that you've worked with of like, what do you mean I'm supposed to be vulnerable? Vulnerable also has this background of like, what are you told about vulnerability?
Haley: (45:54.638)
Some of that? Yeah.
Haley: (46:07.068)
yes, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I had a like one-on-one coaching client who we were really working on this. And she literally said that she feels like if she were to show more vulnerability, it feels like giving her boss a roadmap of how to hurt her. So I think that that is something that's way relatable to our listeners. Like that is, I bet that's something that a lot of people feel that if I show you vulnerability, it's just
Me showing my weaknesses and it's telling you, here's what you can do to harm me and control me or manipulate me or push me down.
Jessica: (46:40.942)
Okay, now hear me out. What does that tell us about this person's lived experience?
Haley: (46:45.378)
that they have used it to hurt her, right? Yeah.
Jessica: (46:48.394)
Exactly. And so like that ties everything together that we've been saying is like based on that person's lived experience, their assumption of how someone is going to respond is based off like you talked about your workplace. That was traumatic for you. So then if you were to go work somewhere else and maybe one thing would come up that was like, my God, I don't have autonomy in my schedule thing is.
Haley: (46:56.449)
Yeah.
Haley: (47:01.418)
yeah. Right.
Haley: (47:16.28)
Yeah.
Jessica: (47:17.686)
your brain is going to light up the flag that says this isn't safe anymore. This isn't safe. And then we start being reactive to a previous trauma versus what's happening in the present. And that's where the
Haley: (47:31.52)
Absolutely. Well, and then on another call, she was sharing all this stuff from an email that she had gotten. And and I am a pretty sensitive person. So if it was really hurtful or potentially hurtful, I probably would have noticed that. But what she was reading me was a normal email from it wasn't, I don't think it was a boss, but it was like a team member lateral to her, and they were collaborating on some sort of program. And it was just some like feedback that the person gave her or questions, and it was just like a collaborative email to me. That's what it felt like.
And again, I'm pretty sensitive. So I would have probably noticed if it was truly offensive. And so I was like, I'll just call her Sally. Like, Sally, I I've noticed that sometimes things like this will really upset you. And it to me, this does not look like something that's even attacking you at all. Can I ask where you are in your cycle, like her menstrual cycle? And I'm not a doctor, clearly. but I like, I don't know, I love women's health and understanding my own body. So I'm going to.
asked about that too. So I asked her and she was I can't remember exactly what she said, but I was like, I think she was probably luteal. So, you know, about to start a period. And and it's not something that that I'm like, it's just PMS, like shut up, like you're being hysterical. No. I literally have, you know, learned a little bit about PMDD. Yes. Honestly can't remember exactly what the acronym stands for.
Jessica: (48:45.95)
Pre menstrual I should know this because it's in the DSM depressive disorder. Pre-menstrual depressive
Haley: (48:51.544)
There you go. I was gonna say, darn damn it. I don't know. But so I asked, like, have you ever had your like blood levels checked to see how your hormones are doing and if you might have PMDD? And she's like, No, and I was like, When's last time you've had your like blood tested? And she said it had been a long time. So she actually did right after that, like booked a doctor's appointment. I know that she actually followed through, it was amazing.
Jessica: (48:55.832)
That feels like that.
Haley: (49:16.792)
So that was a very ideal client. she got her blood work done. Turns out her hormones were way off. She did get medicated for PMDD and things really did start to get better. Like she wasn't as anxious and in doom and so depressed. Yes. And so she could handle an email that wasn't all praise. Yeah. You know, because they weren't being they were actually, I mean, what I read from the other person in the email really did sound psychologically safe because part of being psychologically safe on a team is giving each other feedback and being open to it.
Jessica: (49:45.944)
Setting boundaries and having healthy conflict. But I don't know how much that comes up for you in the work that you're doing, but I hear a lot of like we shy away from conflict. I'm a couples therapist as well, which boy howdy, if you want some stories, that's where they are. Boy howdy. but people are constantly saying that their goal is to lessen or avoid great, love that for you.
Haley: (49:48.962)
Having healthy conflict pressure.
Haley: (49:58.624)
yeah.
Haley: (50:11.434)
yeah.
Jessica: (50:15.31)
And you're not going to end up in a trauma-informed space or a psychologically safe space without conflict because the avoidance of conflict creates resentment, for example, which then leads to not being a psychologically safe place. Exactly. Like there are so many things. Conflict is actually a part of connection if we're doing it correctly, because it's how we demonstrate.
That we can be safe. If I am having conflict with someone and they immediately shut down or they immediately get defensive or they immediately project onto me, I don't feel like I can bring things to them that they might disagree with. In work, for example, collaboration has to be a part of it because I don't know everything. You know, like there is no possible way that I am going to know every bit of information that there is to.
Haley: (50:51.996)
right.
Haley: (51:04.749)
Yeah.
Jessica: (51:05.652)
I'm gonna know how to do it well. I always say like I'm an ideas person, not an executor. I just can't. Like I just big big big things, big ideas, but like how do we get there unsure?
Haley: (51:21.26)
Yeah. Well that's why collaboration's so important, right? Yeah. We don't all have to have the whole gamut of skills.
Jessica: (51:27.988)
No, that makes it way harder. We already all work way harder than we do.
Haley: (51:31.83)
Absolutely. I am a big believer in that. As a human design generator, we're supposed to only do the things we really enjoy. So that's why I started a podcast. Here we are. Yeah. So what are some of the other challenges and barriers that you see in couples therapy?
Jessica: (51:48.664)
Couples therapy. Okay, so first of all, when I first got to resolve, it was like you can work with kids, trauma, or couples. And I had done kids before, like I did play therapy earlier in my career. And I was like, meh, I'm ready to be adults. Like I need a break from that. And ultimately, couples was an area I hadn't done before. And so I was like, why not? Let's take a stab at it. And it's so intimidating at first because you're like,
Haley: (52:04.11)
Yeah. I get that.
Jessica: (52:17.639)
one human and then people are like, Higher marriage is failing, fix it and you're like
Haley: (52:22.85)
Well, yeah.
Jessica: (52:24.382)
how this works. So one of the big things is that is that people come in and expect I'm just magically gonna fix their problems.
Haley: (52:31.854)
Well and are they are they heterosexual couples who come to you too? Or is it a mostly queer couples? Interesting. And how do they feel like about you not being married? I feel like some people will be like, you don't get it, you know?
Jessica: (52:36.682)
It's actually mostly heavy.
Jessica: (52:42.114)
Yeah.
Jessica: (52:45.474)
That's actually something I don't disclose even now unless they directly ask me. So I I will say like I have a partner. And one of the things, again, back to this like whole authenticity thing is I can make fun of myself and that helps other people. So I will use my own experiences that are very relatable to demonstrate how something could have gone back.
Haley: (52:47.586)
so they're in it now. Okay.
Haley: (53:01.678)
Yes.
Haley: (53:10.626)
Yeah, right.
Jessica: (53:14.242)
I don't think it matters that I'm not married in that case because I'm saying a relatable example, like, yes, I did crash out over mashed potatoes at dinner the other night too. Like it happens, right? Like I can I will bring up examples that are pretty much any relationship is going to encounter. sorry, that part hasn't been too much of a pushback of like, you don't understand, ever. And if that were to be a pushback, I would just say, you know what, that's all right. Give you some recommendations.
Haley: (53:31.822)
Okay.
Haley: (53:41.646)
Yeah. Right.
Jessica: (53:44.474)
Who you might feel like are a better fit for you. but some of the main things are communication, lack, keeping score. So like about money or household responsibilities. Money is the number one reason people get a divorce still to this. My parents are divorced, so I can speak quite a bit to that. I think people in the therapeutic space appreciate that. It's like
Haley: (53:50.37)
Yep. Yep.
Haley: (54:05.628)
Okay, yeah.
Jessica: (54:13.61)
Any child of divorce. And so giving perspective of like people are always worried about like how will this impact our kids? so that has been helpful. But money, finances control, wanting control or needing control, that's also not a bad word. People often, when I'm working with someone in therapy, if I'm like, hey, like it sounds like your anxiety is just really needing you to feel more in control right now. People are like
Haley: (54:14.702)
Yeah.
Haley: (54:28.273)
yeah.
Jessica: (54:43.05)
I I'm not controlling. I'm not saying that you are controlling. And anxious brain feels safe when it knows the plan and it
Haley: (54:51.87)
Yes, ambiguity makes people uncomfortable. Yeah.
Jessica: (54:55.31)
Like I am you. Get it. That there will be another example. If my partner changes the plans, I cannot. You mentioned like in the very beginning, being adaptable and flexible. That is always an area of control. Because I'm anxious. It's not that I don't want to have fun. It's not that I don't want to be spot spontaneous.
Haley: (54:58.434)
Yeah.
Haley: (55:11.504)
yeah.
Jessica: (55:20.884)
It's that my anxious brain, like you mentioned, like if I think I'm having Asian food, I've already planned out what I'm gonna order off of the menu. So then if we change where we're going, I panic. And I'm like, Frick, I need
Haley: (55:33.462)
I really wanted ramen. Yeah. Well
Jessica: (55:35.882)
And I like amped myself I was gonna eat ramen and this is what I was gonna order and this is why it was gonna be a good fit for me because I'm anxious. I'm not socially anxious and anxious about a lot of other things, right? So in relationships, lack of control leads to one partner feeling really, really anxious, but there on the flip side, too much control leads to the other partner feeling really restricted. And so working to find that balance of
Haley: (55:41.454)
Yeah.
Haley: (55:46.872)
His name, yeah. Right.
Haley: (56:01.474)
Yeah.
Jessica: (56:04.814)
Hey, your anxious partner just needs you to communicate a little bit more about the change. Your anxious partner is just asking for you to be a little bit more explicit about what to expect. And then on the flip side, anxious partner, can you be a little bit more expressive as to what your needs are and what you're needing to understand? what would help you feel like you had control? Ironically, choice, which is one of those tenets of trauma-informed care that we were.
Haley: (56:23.597)
Yeah.
Haley: (56:33.249)
Yeah.
Jessica: (56:33.728)
choice and empowerment right within couples therapy a lot of the time what i'm ex asking them to do is a talk to each other and b give each other the same treatment you would give your kids like if i would give my kids choice for what they wear to school i'm only gonna give choices that i'm okay with
Haley: (56:44.799)
Yeah.
Haley: (56:50.797)
yeah.
Haley: (56:57.93)
Exactly.
Jessica: (56:59.448)
So don't tell your partner we can go anywhere for dinner and then be mad when they pick red robin if you didn't want red raw. Like these are the kinds of things that we're working through therapy. And a lot of it feels so like, it's the practice piece. It's like taking a break when there's that's one of my favorite, favorite tools is like you are allowed to be annoyed as hell with your person.
Haley: (57:10.51)
Totally.
Haley: (57:15.522)
Yeah.
Haley: (57:19.842)
Yeah.
Jessica: (57:26.848)
I don't care if you are high school sweethearts that have been together for 90 years, or if you just started seeing someone in your like I want you to understand, humans that I'm working with, that it is all right to be annoyed with the person that you're spending time with. Talk about it. That is how you have to build psychological safety into your
Haley: (57:33.954)
Yeah,
Haley: (57:43.51)
Yeah.
Haley: (57:49.688)
Right.
Haley: (57:53.518)
yes.
Jessica: (57:55.854)
Trauma informed care shows up there too. Like not that I am saying we all need to therapise our partners. Please don't do that. But what I am saying is like all of these concepts apply to people. We are humans before we are anything else. And as Brene says, as humans, we are wired for struggle, but we are still worthy of love and belonging. Two things can be true at the same time.
Haley: (58:11.992)
Yeah.
Jessica: (58:21.974)
I am wired for struggle. I am imperfect, but I am still so deserving of being loved and feeling like I love.
Haley: (58:28.82)
Absolutely. Well, when you talk about like communication, she says it so simply, but clear is kind, unclear is unkind. Meaning, then you are you can and they're not like opposites, clear and directness is not the opposite of gentleness and kindness, they can coexist and people don't know that or they don't know how to practice it. So a lot of what we're talking about, like with me in the workplace, and you with couples and and individuals and things like that, and some workplace stuff.
Is that you have to practice this because when you talk about trauma-informed care and you are activating those parts of your brain, the amygdala and the hippocampus that are so sensitive to cortisol, that stress hormone, you have to, I think, and this is why I'm a big believer in role-playing and practicing. And some people hate it. But I'm sorry, you're gonna do better if you like in the real life moment, like
When I always use LeBron James is my like you're a car metaphor person, I'm a basketball metaphor person, which is hilarious. I know like a little bit about it, but I just like like basketball. But he doesn't just and and the greatness of all those players. They don't just think about basketball and like go out to the the court for only games. Like, no, they are practicing in the off season. They are strength training. Or when we watch I watched I called it studying for the Super Bowl a couple of years ago. I watched the quarterback documentary so I could be prepared. So cause it was, you know, mo
A third of it was about Patrick Mahomes, the KC Chiefs quarterback. And I learned so much about how he like invests in his body and his mental health and like constantly practicing. He doesn't just go out and play a game, like an NFL game out of nowhere. No, he constantly practices. What? I know, but like that what is your what is your game that you're ready for? Yeah. And what's the practice that you're getting ready for?
And so that's why it's important to have these conversations in different scenarios so that you can have your mind know what it's like to feel that rush of cortisol so you can overcome it in a real life scenario. Cause it's like, I've been here before. That is true.
Jessica: (01:00:22.274)
Actually, trauma, like I mentioned, like is it's stored in your body, right? The body keeps the tour. A wonderful book if you haven't read it, I highly recommend. but your brain is capable of rewiring even if you've had trauma in your lifetime, because of practice. Exactly what you're saying: of like, if I can introduce my brain to state scenarios, then it can pull from that as a reference instead of just the bad scenarios. Allows you to cope better with.
Haley: (01:00:49.057)
yeah.
Jessica: (01:00:52.258)
The trauma you know, and it is practice. Like all of this comes down to
Haley: (01:00:57.634)
Yeah, you can't just like ponder about things. Like it's good to think about it too. You have to actually practice it physically and with your mouth, like truly actually say things. But like communicate. You have to be clear about things. And that's that is kind to your partner or your employee or your teammate or whatever. It's kind to be clear.
Jessica: (01:01:16.622)
Yes. And expectations are another thing couples are always upset with each other about is like these unwritten expectations of like who's gonna do what or like what I would have done my partner did and like yada yada. but it goes right back to what you're saying of like you have to it is kind of you as my partner to tell me what you need and expect of me exactly so I can meet your expectations.
Haley: (01:01:28.81)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:01:42.599)
Right, first of all.
Jessica: (01:01:44.59)
So then if I can't, I can express that back to you. We can exchange vulnerability there. I need you to be more physically affectionate with me. I hear this one a lot. Like I need you to be more intentional about touching. That is the other hot topic I talk about in couples therapy constantly.
Haley: (01:01:51.476)
Exactly.
Haley: (01:01:58.288)
yeah.
Haley: (01:02:10.764)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:02:11.606)
Everyone's so funny and this is one of my favorite things. People are always like so weird trying to talk about sex and therapy because they're like like this is who we're supposed to talk about this stuff.
Haley: (01:02:23.63)
But that's crazy. It's like you should one hundred thousand percent be talking about this. And if you can't talk about it, how are you supposed to have a good sex life or intimacy intimacy in your partnership, right?
Jessica: (01:02:28.088)
Believe in talk.
Jessica: (01:02:34.798)
Actually, like honestly, how therapy is so helpful for your sex life is that I am teaching you skills to communicate in a setting that is supposed to be safe. Right? I say supposed to be not because I'm not making it safe, but because people go in with this weird, like, this is like a doctor, and I need to be very like brief and like DMI, like, don't share too much. I have a
Haley: (01:02:41.378)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:02:45.274)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:03:00.768)
A couple just the other day, one partner was like sharing quite a bit of informational experience and the other partner was like, Don't you think that's a little much? And I had to have this conversation of like how on earth am I going to help you if I don't understand the dynamics? Yeah.
Haley: (01:03:05.292)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:03:17.396)
And I'd rather know a little too much than not enough to help you. I'm always Yeah. TMI more like tell me immediately.
Jessica: (01:03:21.602)
Like, I'm a therapist.
Yes. Spill every drop of tea. I am ready. Yes. Yes. Anyway, so communication is at like the root of all of the things that we've covered today. and being willing to be vulnerable. Because even when my clients are talking about sex, I have to be willing to be vulnerable in the sense it's still hard and awkward for me sometimes to walk through with someone the intimate details of their sex life.
Haley: (01:03:39.444)
yes.
Haley: (01:03:46.734)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:03:52.14)
But they're not going to get anything out of it if I am not willing to take the risk of being vulnerable by bringing it up or by asking to explore it for further or by giving them homework, for example, sex homework. that my own therapist shout out Angela, every therapist needs a therapist. I've been with mine for eight years. She's my ride or die every week.
Haley: (01:03:55.768)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:04:03.362)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:04:16.216)
cannot live without her help. But she actually is who helped me with that in my own therapeutic journey of like she's like, Jessica, we have to be able to talk about your body if I can help you with how you feel about being in your body. And that included talking about intimate details of my body, being familiar with parts of my body that I've been wanting to ignore or forget exist. It's just like the vulnerability of being open to trying something that feels a little bit
Haley: (01:04:32.588)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:04:37.654)
Interesting.
Haley: (01:04:43.904)
Yeah. that's amazing. Gorgeous. Yes. I mean, expectations are so important. Like, even when I've gone on trips with friends. man. Yeah. I went to Australia with a friend a few years ago. And my gosh, like we talked, I think three times, like just about expectations ahead of time. And we ended up having the best trip. Like I think you knew what to expect. Yeah. And I we could call out, like, I was afraid she was going to be like on her phone a lot and like missing her husband and stuff. And so, and that's fine. But like, we are so far away and
And luckily there wasn't good Wi-Fi, so she couldn't be on her phone all the time. But and she thought I was gonna just want to be spontaneous and not make any plans. And I was like, okay, well, like that's that's a good concern. But like, no, I I have FOMO, so I don't want to miss out on the amazing things we can do. But we could like use those words then when the conflict maybe was starting to come up. Like she would be like, I really need to know, you it's like 10 a.m. When are we getting lunch? Where are we gonna go? If we didn't have like a plan already. And so I'd be like, yeah, yeah, let's okay, let's pause and make that plan. And within the next hour and a half,
Or two hours, we're gonna make sure we get lunch. It's but that that clear is kind. Yeah, I'm not offended that she says, Hold on, I need to know where we're going for lunch. In no way does that make me upset. Like I can be more spontaneous than two hours ahead planning, but she can't. And if it makes her more comfortable, I'm fine making that plan, right? I think all
Jessica: (01:05:59.756)
relationships go back to meeting the other person where and no relationship whether it be friends coworkers your spouse whoever no relationship will ever be 100% easy 50 all the time the whole point of having people in our life especially like chosen family or friends or spouses or whoever is to have people in your corner who can show up for you when you can't show up for yourself and so that's the last like
Haley: (01:06:02.53)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:06:11.16)
Well you can all
Haley: (01:06:19.15)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:06:24.813)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:06:28.076)
blanket statement about that I'll say is that first of all, all what would you want? Like that is a lens that I go from a lot of like what would I need from this person in this moment? And how can I ask them if that's what they need from me.
Haley: (01:06:42.476)
like it. Right. And asking them not just doing it because what some people want is not what you want. Right. Yeah. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:06:49.036)
Yes, which could be like, hey, I can tell you're having a hard time. Do you want me to listen? Do you want feedback? Or do you want me to just like giving your people choice? There is kind. If I know what I need, I'm also going to be way easier to get along. The times that my partner and I are having spats, it's because I'm not communicating. I'm like, I needed to eat two hours ago and now I am a raging DI. Whereas
Haley: (01:06:56.808)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:07:06.028)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:07:15.521)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:07:17.624)
Had I have taken a note from your friend's book and been like, hi, it's ten o'clock. Can we talk about when and where we're gonna have I wouldn't be in them? Instead I'll just sit there and be like, You should know that I'm angry by now.
Haley: (01:07:24.118)
Yeah. Exactly.
Haley: (01:07:31.488)
And it's like, I'm sorry, they are not a mind reader. You know? Yeah. Correct. So speaking of that, like being in different relationships, what are some yeah, mind readers, what is a red or what are some red flags that you see or would want people to like look out for while they're dating before they get into a huge commitment with somebody?
Jessica: (01:07:50.636)
I love that question. I think the first one, ha, ironically, communication. What is their communication like before you even go on a date? If if that's the you meet this person on a dating app, how do they interact with you in between the date and like setting the date in the actual completely dip off the face of the earth? Are they obsessively texting? Like
Haley: (01:08:00.846)
Amen.
Haley: (01:08:10.444)
Yeah. Do they just
Haley: (01:08:16.152)
Thank you.
Jessica: (01:08:17.162)
Where is that middle ground at? Are they oversharing information before they meet you or relying on you too heavily?
Haley: (01:08:24.456)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:08:27.97)
You mentioned earlier like a white knight syndrome situation, that piece. If you feel like you are in the headspace of, I can fix him. Red flag. You can't. No.
Haley: (01:08:38.914)
Yep. I mean Tay Tay has a thong all about that. I usually skip it 'cause it's not my favorite beat, but but I it's like I get it, I get it, I like Yeah. I can fix him no really I can. maybe I can't, right?
Jessica: (01:08:55.042)
Like and being real with yourself too about that, right? So the red flags, yeah, communication, like too much, not enough.
Haley: (01:09:03.71)
And you don't have to put up with bad communication. You don't have to keep dating somebody you're not in in line with.
Jessica: (01:09:09.772)
no, this is shopping.
Haley: (01:09:13.004)
It's okay to be alone. Some people don't know that.
Jessica: (01:09:16.502)
It's scary to be alone. we could have a whole episode about that, like codependent relationships and like how easy it is to slip into that. It's like scary easy. so that too, does this person have any hobbies? Are they telling you that they are spending time with people? Are they giving not that not that people who don't have hobbies or who aren't hanging out with a friend every single day is a red flag?
Haley: (01:09:21.613)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:09:44.674)
flag but if you are someone who has a really busy life and you have a lot of hobbies and you have a lot of friendships and relationships you're gonna want someone who understands that and so like that may be a red flag for you yourself maybe not everyone but depending on your lifestyle and what's important to you and what you them
Haley: (01:09:50.957)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:09:56.374)
Absolutely.
Haley: (01:10:03.47)
yeah. I mean, I went out with somebody like maybe a couple years ago who literally said he had no friends. And he was such a nihilist. And I am so not a nihilist. I'm very like optimistic and future focused. And he literally was like, I mean, what does it matter taking care of the planet? Like, I don't have kids and I'm not gonna have any like legacy. And I was like, Wow, we are not aligned.
Jessica: (01:10:24.404)
not align so the the red flag there was this person doesn't align with my value
Haley: (01:10:29.098)
Exactly. And that's all right. Yeah. I wasn't gonna go out with them again. No way. Yeah. But it was but also I need somebody who has friends. Like social life is a huge factor for me. Totally. You know. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:10:41.582)
Totally. Yeah. and then I mean your typical holes, right? Like they abuse. Well there's there is that. Yeah, I've been told to swipe left on everyone holding a fish. I don't know your thoughts on this. Being more in the man swiped.
Haley: (01:10:48.43)
Right.
Haley: (01:11:00.334)
I think I've seen one. Yeah. I think I've seen one fish picture where I was like, damn, that is a big fish. And I get why you took a picture. Okay. And all the others have been like, okay, well, like it's just not that impressive. That don't impress me much. I mean, yeah, I just it's not, it's not a thing. But I think that the problem is is like a lot of men don't take pictures or ask.
For pictures be taken of them. I've heard this is like one of the problems, you know. So like that's why it's always a fish picture because that's a reason for a man to ask another person that please take a picture of me with my catch of the day. And they don't just do it when they're like, I feel cute today. You know?
Jessica: (01:11:41.812)
making me have empathy for men right.
Haley: (01:11:43.884)
I know. Can you believe it? Yeah. but yeah, that's very interesting. Yeah. Okay. So as we kind of wrap up, I want to talk about a couple of fun things. So since this is called Make It a Party, I want to hear what is your favorite Taylor Swift era or album? And I think I know this. And they can be different. Era and album if it's different. Yeah, era is more like how did she dress? What was the vibe? An album is like the lyrics, the music. So if you want to share that, I'd love for you to open.
Jessica: (01:12:11.414)
Okay. Do you think you already know?
Haley: (01:12:14.19)
I think you've told me. Maybe I have. You became a fan during Lover.
Jessica: (01:12:19.924)
I yes, okay, okay. So I my Taylor story is like kind of all over the place. I met her when I was nine eighteen. I did not care about her at the time. I like that feels like a sin to say.
Haley: (01:12:21.612)
Right.
Haley: (01:12:29.102)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:12:37.048)
I used to hate her too. I'm a convert.
Jessica: (01:12:38.862)
Wouldn't I love that so much I've not heard that terminology?
Haley: (01:12:41.496)
We're both converts.
Haley: (01:12:45.39)
My conversion song was Forever and Always. So it was it was early. I hated debut. I loved that song. I really connected with it. l late college. Okay, okay. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:12:55.916)
You have been
Jessica: (01:13:00.696)
That okay, so I yeah, debut was like, look at this, blah blah and then fast forward a few years later, I had a friend who was like the groupie of all groupies for every band ever. Like, you know, like went to every single Jonas Brothers show for like very invested in love with fandom, yes. And so this friend was like, Hey, will you
Haley: (01:13:14.699)
Okay.
Haley: (01:13:19.915)
Okay, gotcha. Yeah. Love the fandom. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:13:29.128)
ride with me to Tennessee from Kansas to go to a thirteen hour meet and greet for Taylor Swift. And I was like, I mean, I guess. Like why not?
Haley: (01:13:34.388)
huh.
Haley: (01:13:41.858)
Love it. You are down. That's amazing.
Jessica: (01:13:44.29)
This was like the most wild trip of my life. We went with her parents last minute. Her parents drove us. I her parents maybe twice. Wow. They did not get us a hotel room. It was a wild trip.
Haley: (01:13:50.882)
Okay.
Haley: (01:13:58.06)
Meaning you shared a room with the parents or you gave it nothing.
Jessica: (01:14:00.396)
Meaning w they didn't have any rooms. They we were in the car. And then at like midnight they were like, I guess we should get a hotel room and we ended up like some super eight or something.
Haley: (01:14:05.314)
You slept in the car?
Haley: (01:14:11.69)
expectations.
Jessica: (01:14:13.646)
Yeah. Anyway, so fast forward, didn't care about her much during that time. Went and did the thing. I have a cool picture to show, which is the best of the best. We're covered in bracelets. I got to give her bracelets. We're doing the art together. Very cute. Then I like took a break, whatever. 1989 is what brought me back in in college. I remember buying the CD at Target, listening to it in my Saturn ion.
Haley: (01:14:35.363)
okay.
Haley: (01:14:41.39)
Okay.
Jessica: (01:14:42.382)
Her name, my car's name was Fran Louise. in 1989 was like blank space Starbucks. Fast forward, fell off the train again.
Haley: (01:14:45.358)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:14:51.01)
Or yeah.
Because of that which is crazy. I know. I mean, I guess that's when the world hated her because of Kim Yeah. But refutation
Jessica: (01:15:03.406)
Well, Reputation's my favorite album. And Lover's my favorite era. So you were partially on. Gotcha. I love love. Like I just love love. I have a Lady in the Tram tattoo for that reason because I literally just love.
Haley: (01:15:05.782)
Mm. Okay, yeah.
Haley: (01:15:20.238)
Well and you're an Enneagram too, right? And a cancer. Yeah. yeah. You want to be loved, you want to give love, you want to feel love. Yes.
Jessica: (01:15:23.352)
And I'm a can.
Just have a left.
Jessica: (01:15:32.846)
So I was all about lover, right? And at the time Big Panic at the Disco fan. So her collaboratory, I was like, hi, excuse me, what like which not my favorite song, but it's okay. I forgot it now. I liked the idea. But I love pastels and kinks and the glitter and the like hopeless romantic, like meet me at the bench and the reputation is
Haley: (01:15:40.673)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:15:48.77)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Haley: (01:16:00.297)
Yeah.
Jessica: (01:16:02.733)
Like
Haley: (01:16:05.144)
Perfection. And I, you know that she the fact that she didn't release the re-record, I understand and I was saying she doesn't need to. It's it doesn't need to be improved upon. And it's not even that old yet. Yeah. I mean her vocals were good by that point. Right. It's not I mean it was yeah, you know, some of the older albums is nice as she improved upon her vocals, but also like I I have I love the nostalgia of the imperfections. You know, I mean fearless one album of the year for a reason.
Jessica: (01:16:31.48)
You you're like, listen.
Haley: (01:16:32.822)
Yeah. I mean not great vocals, but like great songwriting.
Jessica: (01:16:37.102)
Well, and she just said in New Heights podcast, right? When she was talking about Easter egg, she mentioned a long time ago, that she used to do like the different capital letters, the like code words or whatever, and how that was just fun. I'm in all started. I am that is how it all started. And the rest is history.
Haley: (01:16:43.053)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:16:50.9)
Yeah. The C D booklets.
Haley: (01:16:58.123)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:17:01.922)
Yeah.
Amen. Hursory of we're I mean, we were texting about this. There's so many synchronicities and numerology and just the world with Taylor that it kind of feels like it's Taylor Swift's world and we're just living in
Jessica: (01:17:17.87)
And I personally am just not now.
Haley: (01:17:20.864)
No, I mean I feel honored that I live in a timeline in a in the in the same like time as Taylor Swift. Yeah. Like we were born in the same decade. I am weirdly older than her, but I still just love her, you know.
Jessica: (01:17:35.608)
Brittany Mahomes turned 30 this weekend. Talking about Patty Boy earlier and yeah, yeah, a friend of mine that I used to work with. I used to do makeup in college. That was my job. I was getting cosmetics. I was like a certified artist. It was playing. one of my old colleagues from there is the makeup artist for Brittany Holmes for all the games. So I get a regular
Haley: (01:17:37.803)
Really?
yeah. I didn't realize that.
Haley: (01:17:51.927)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:17:59.329)
my gosh, wow.
Haley: (01:18:04.53)
Yeah. interesting. Luke's love it. Well, this has been amazing. So I want to ask one last question and we'll wrap this up. Okay. Well, actually, maybe a couple questions. how can people get a hold of you? What do you have coming up? like projects or opportunities. yeah, and then we'll put all of this stuff in the show notes too, with links.
Jessica: (01:18:05.15)
Speak on her what
Jessica: (01:18:25.4)
Perfect. so because I'm a therapist and have to have my stuff pretty locked down, LinkedIn's the best place to find me professionally. I'm also available via email, which we can arrange for that. in terms of upcoming events, this is actually, I'm so glad you asked. September 26th is a Friday. so Resolve does an annual conference for helping professionals of all kinds.
And the idea, it's called care for you too. So the idea is that it is a conference that is self-care for helping professionals. Yes. So like in my world, we're sent to conferences all the time and it's like lecture-based, and you just sit there all day long and listen to someone talk at you. That is not restorative for everyone, especially when I literally sit and listen to people talk at me every day always.
Haley: (01:19:03.647)
Amazing.
Haley: (01:19:15.725)
Right.
Jessica: (01:19:21.166)
so the idea is that the day of is self-care experiences. So this year we actually have a local comedian coming to do some improv. Start the morning. We're calling it a laughter lab. Okay. and she's gonna pull in like similar themes of improv and mental health. There's a lot of overlap. we're also doing some creative things like watercolor, mandalas, we're making a gratitude chart, a lot of cool stuff.
Haley: (01:19:31.073)
Fine and
Haley: (01:19:39.565)
Okay.
Jessica: (01:19:49.666)
So the idea is that people come and focus on caring for themselves. And they're all their free time, they get six asynchronous video recorded continuing education credits. Still getting the credits that they're needing for licensure, but is about you and about your work and what you're doing. And this, in my opinion, is for anyone that identifies themselves as a helper.
Haley: (01:19:54.23)
I love that.
Haley: (01:20:03.213)
okay, awesome.
Yeah, yeah.
Haley: (01:20:15.374)
Okay.
Jessica: (01:20:15.914)
so if you're in the medical space, if you're in the school space, business development, yeah, I think a lot of people could feel just benefit from taking a morning to focus on themselves.
Haley: (01:20:29.868)
Yes, I love it. Well, we'll put the link to sign up in the social post too. okay, well and Jessica, as we are wrapping up, I would like to know what are you going to do this week to make it a party? Like how are you going to make life more fun? And whimsical or however you want to define it.
Jessica: (01:20:46.606)
Gosh, okay.
Jessica: (01:20:50.648)
Well, are you familiar with glimmers?
Haley: (01:20:53.324)
I yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:20:55.138)
Glimmer is like my favorite word. The glimmer is just like unexpected happy things or like something that happens in your day that just like is like a I'm here for a reason. So I always say I'm gonna look for the glimmers and I'm going to be more intentional about finding them. but this week to make it a party, so we just bought a propane tank last night and three different kinds of chocolate for s'mores. So I'm gonna make it a party this week by having s'mores.
Haley: (01:21:04.63)
Yeah.
Haley: (01:21:12.94)
Right.
Jessica: (01:21:24.352)
in my new backyard with my dogs and my
Haley: (01:21:27.244)
That is amazing. Yeah, you don't have to make a whole party with a bunch of people. I mean, you can. I plan to. But but that is amazing. Like you can have just like a small gathering of who you live with. Yeah. Yeah. Literally just make some s'mores, add some sprinkles. Yeah.
Jessica: (01:21:40.748)
like a ball started this yeah I made protein bowls this weekend and added spooky sprinkles that makes it hard
Haley: (01:21:47.566)
That totally made it a party. my god, I love it.
Jessica: (01:21:51.464)
Okay, what are you going to do? And this is yeah.
Haley: (01:21:54.766)
Should have thought of this. My dad's gonna be here this week and he always makes it a party too. I probably get it from him. So we'll probably like eat great food. he's coming up for like some business stuff, but it'll be fun because like we'll probably get like good meals and like take my dog on a walk to the park and things like that. I need to think of some like even bigger things than that. But yeah, that's I love when he visits, so it's gonna be great. Yeah. Of course.
Jessica: (01:22:22.478)
Well thanks for having me. A party.
Haley: (01:22:25.722)
It really has been. And thanks for everybody who has listened to this. I'm glad that Jessica was my very first guest because it could not have gone any better. And check us out on the next episode. Everything will be wherever you get your podcasts.
